Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

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Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:56 pm

Step One?? May I suggest deciding on what basic responsibilities or areas where the body has jurisdiction over local Governments

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Imagine

Post  Mayflow on Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:19 pm

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

- John Lennon

The more governments are built and believed in,
the less this will be...

Instead of building central and regional jurisdictions
(read impediments, rules and restrictions imposed by some "chosen ones"
over others) can we not encourage Freedom and such?
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Imagine,

Post  thedoc on Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:07 am

In a way this is what Peacegirl, and 'The Decline and Fall of all Evil' is proposing, but the reasoning of that book is so flawed as to be unuseable. On another forum they have gone over 40 pages back and forth with this. And she still didn't want to leave chapter 1 till everyone agreed with her, but somehow she got onto Chapter 4.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Mayflow on Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:03 am

thedoc wrote:In a way this is what Peacegirl, and 'The Decline and Fall of all Evil' is proposing, but the reasoning of that book is so flawed as to be unuseable. On another forum they have gone over 40 pages back and forth with this. And she still didn't want to leave chapter 1 till everyone agreed with her, but somehow she got onto Chapter 4.

Still couldn't join the forum for some reason. The reasoning in the book may be unrealistic because most people can't get up to those ideals, but I think that Peacegirl is onto something, and I think it is an achievable ideal. Imagine! Very Happy
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:34 am

Mayflow wrote:
but I think that Peacegirl is onto something, and I think it is an achievable ideal. Imagine! Very Happy

The goal is certainly achievable, but he reached it by going backwards, reasoning what it would take to get there, and then building arguments to support the means. Too many times the author was reaching for proofs and useing unsound reasoning to do it. His lack of education was a serious handicap because he was useing terms in an unconvential way when there could have been better terms to use. He justified his nonstandard definitions by saying everyone else was confused as to what these terms ment and he was clarifying things. This has lead to a lot of confusion rather than clearing things up. It is possable that he thought that by making the whole thing sound so fantastic, everyone would rush to embrace it, but it has had the opposite effect for anyone who has tried to read it. I have managed to encourage her to move along, but I'm not sure how long the ruse will last.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Username on Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:38 am

Step #1 ~ Authority and Leadership

Who is "allowed" to have power within an "ideal" government??

All people? Just a few? One man? One woman? None else?

Shouldn't we put a child or monkey on top of the Throne of Man?? Why or why not?


If nobody can answer this question then we cannot rise to step #2.

Kristy, your answer is expected by 0900 tomorrow......

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:21 pm

Actually i was thinking more in the lines of a democratic Republic form of Governing. Those elected by their people propose laws then the people that are citizens vote on the laws. mass participation via the net. It not "allowed" its votes.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:22 pm

Lets sayThat democratic Republic be top of the list. OK?
what powers should the body have?

Military/ police
health
education
trade
immigration
technology

then what powers within the powers? Step up folks lets at least propose outlines

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Username on Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:55 pm

Who made you Queen of the World to dictate that we should abide by a "Democratic Republic"??

I dispute your Authority here. Tell me one good reason that anybody should abide by a "Democracy" rather than say, Communism??


As for me, I obviously believe: Absolute Tyranny is the way. No votes, no nothing. Morons shouldn't believe their voice constitutes anything more than a dull droning noise.

Children shouldn't vote let alone believe their 'opinion' is worth a shit in this world.....

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:15 pm

LOL, without any other valid suggestions it may as well stay. Being busy sniping is not much help. Tyranny only works well when the population is small and controlable by fear.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Mayflow on Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:03 pm

Making new governments is not the way to rebel or change things for the better. The way is mind control. I have spoken with other super leaders and we agree but the catch is (there is always a catch) we use this to set minds free. The world is actually chaotic and pregnant with infinite possibilities, so we decree Operation Illumination and it is hereby launched. Heh, talk about leadership - Lead by command, not by demand.

Username, I'll find a way to dumb it down enough for you, well if I decide to.
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:59 pm

Mayflow I am curious how those, who either will not, or cannot, accept this new freedom and responsability, will be accomidated. For example satyr believes he is superior to everyone else, you will need to open his closed mind to the truth. With a closed mind it is like the ego is opaque and light can neither enter or shine out, but when the mind is open the ego is transparent and the light from within can shine out, and light of illumination can enter.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Username on Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:14 pm

kriswest wrote:LOL, without any other valid suggestions it may as well stay.
And YOU are the judge of Validity??

You don't even understand basic logic, girl. You know this is true. You are no authority on 'validity' when I walk all over you in any given argument/discussion/etc. So you basically just invalidated yourself. You shot yourself in the foot at this point, good job.


kriswest wrote:Being busy sniping is not much help.
It obviously is necessary since you are deluded into believing 'Democracy' is some great necessary thing.

It's not. Communism is just as 'valid' as Democracy. If you can prove otherwise then you may have a point.


kriswest wrote:Tyranny only works well when the population is small and controlable by fear.
No no no...... Tyranny works best when the population is very, very large.

And all populations are controlled by fear so that point is moot.

Think of the heights of the Roman Empire. Emperors reigned supreme. It's a natural, social progression.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:15 pm

So you wish tyranny user OK. Mayflow has operation Illumination, a Communism vote sort of from user and democratic republic is mine.

Logic and Governing? How do you logically expect to create fear when the population outnumbers the government? Take a look at countries right now Tyrants are falling. People are waking up to that simple fact. If you kill everyone who are you going to rule? Fear is far from logical, it only lasts a short time then rebellion occurs

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Username on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:14 pm

kriswest wrote:So you wish tyranny user OK. Mayflow has operation Illumination, a Communism vote sort of from user and democratic republic is mine.
You apparently do not know why & how "voting" exists.

It exists to fool plebs (like you) into believing their opinions are important, heard, and respected by elites. They are not.

Opinions are the shit that I need scrub-off my boots.


kriswest wrote:Logic and Governing? How do you logically expect to create fear when the population outnumbers the government?
Cull the regional warlords of any particular society, like the US military does in Afghanistan.

Order is maintained through Bribery and Fear of retaliation, as it always had been throughout Human History and Civilization.


kriswest wrote:Take a look at countries right now Tyrants are falling. People are waking up to that simple fact.
There is no "waking-up". US and European military forces are attacking & occupying "rogue" nations which readily do not bend to their will. There are politics occurring on levels you cannot even comprehend, woman.


kriswest wrote:If you kill everyone who are you going to rule?
Everybody are already sheep; all one needs to do is kill the Shepherd and direct the flock into a new direction.

That's not difficult or complex. It's simple logic & reasoning.


kriswest wrote:Fear is far from logical, it only lasts a short time then rebellion occurs
Fear is not the only device of control available.

There are others and a whole bag of tools are used to control entire populations of people.

Your mind is not cut-out for this stuff, woman. You should stick to raising weak children, who cannot rebel, who have no strength to rebel. That is where you have developed your false sense-of-responsibility that you are a "good leader" or even capable. You're not. Children are the easiest to control of all people because they are most susceptible to threats of violence or sex.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:21 pm

ROTFLMAO , yea, you push those buttons hon, it won't work on me , you should know that by now.Its soooo unoriginal. Laughing
What you don't see and you don't understand is that by giving people a voice the game changes. Fear would hinder not help. If people know they can have a say then they become part of the machine not thralls. Their outlook changes. They support and protect, not from fear but from possession. We humans like to own things. If we truly have a voice then we own it, we are not owned by it.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:37 pm

Military/ police
health
education
trade
immigration
technology/science
Taxes



Anyone? Pick a topic and start a thread no repeats, lets keep one thread per subject and that way it will be easier to review.
Laughing So far this reminds me of typical Govermnet employees, if we were employed by the people as representatives we would have wasted about a million in tax dollars so far. is that really what we want to do? Can't we do better?


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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Username on Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:54 pm

Define to me what makes your political system "valid". Answer me. Tell me about your 'validity'.

I want to hear why your mere opinions are so "valid", before moving on.

If you dodge my questions again then I'm out of here. You are wasting my precious time.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:15 pm

I am hardly dodging your questions. as far as validity I mean that i am trying to cooperate or stick with the topic. So far you have jumped the gun on subjects that will be brought up. I do believe I have said this. If you choose to leave then OK . I would rather you not. I would rather see your input. I know you to have good valid input if you choose to do so.Want to start over? Lets go back to the beginning. What form do you think would work best. I do not agree with tyranny it is a fruitless form that only promotes eventual breakdown.

I did forget to put one other thing on that last post of mine

citizens

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:34 pm

Mayflow wrote:
thedoc wrote:In a way this is what Peacegirl, and 'The Decline and Fall of all Evil' is proposing, but the reasoning of that book is so flawed as to be unuseable. On another forum they have gone over 40 pages back and forth with this. And she still didn't want to leave chapter 1 till everyone agreed with her, but somehow she got onto Chapter 4.

Still couldn't join the forum for some reason. The reasoning in the book may be unrealistic because most people can't get up to those ideals, but I think that Peacegirl is onto something, and I think it is an achievable ideal. Imagine! Very Happy

Mayflow, here is a reasonably good synopsis of the first several chapters,

"Today, 07:38 AM
Vivisectus

Re: A revolution in thought

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am taking the time to read the book and make notes. I have a few objections. Apologies for the enormous post.

Substituting "Mathematical" and "Scientific" when you mean "Undeniable" - a better word would be self-evident - is disingenuous. It attempts to make arguments sound more authoritative.

A further attack on the scientific community follows on page 7. Apparently the lack of rapport from scientific circles stung somewhat. Considerable time is devoted to spuriously accusing the scientific community of dogmatism and closed-mindedness. One cannot help but wonder what undeniable truth needs such extensive fore-arming against disbelief? It goes on for about 20 pages!

We then arrive – at last! – to the first time we hear of the central issue. Is man’s will free? According to Lessans, it is not, and for the following reason:

Once a decision has been made, there is no way to go back and then see if, under identical circumstances, a person would have chosen otherwise. Since it is impossible to prove that will is free, the opposite must be true.

This is actually a fallacy. We cannot prove that the Invisible Pink Unicorn does not exist. The opposite – the existence of the IPU – is not automatically true. This is not the “mathematical, scientific” proof Lessans thinks it is.

Later, this is revisited and stated as follows:

All decisions must be meant to lead to the choice that yields the most satisfaction. However, the only measure of what it was that led to the most satisfaction is the fact that the person chose it – so really he is only re-stating the same proof that was there before: what was chosen had to be chosen because it was chosen.

So far we have a wordy and prosy exposition of determinism – but what follows is a great leap that is not warranted or supported by anything. What is causing all harmful intent is blame, because blame leads to justification. Blame does not allow us to say “I hurt that person because I felt like it” and instead makes us invent a justification for harming without provocation – a “first blow”. All harm that is not justified is retaliation, a reaction to a first blow.

So if we removed blame, then there would be no justification, so no-one would want to have harmful intents – the first blows are eliminated. If we consider will not free, then retaliation becomes useless as well.

There is a flaw here that Lessans seems unaware of. Blame, as well as justification (or rather, rationalization) happen after the fact. Someone who is trying to rationalize having done something harmful did not rationalize before acting, but does so after the fact. It is not part of the decision-making process. What is a part of the decision making process is a desire to do something and a weighing of the results. How far we look into the possible range of results could be taken as a measure of how careful we are about that decision. When a driver gets into a car while drunk, he does so because he wants to go home in his car, and not spend money on a taxi and waste time in the morning. He does so because probably, no accident will happen, even though he has increased the likelihood of one. He is already aware of this, and he is already aware that he is doing so because he wants to. He already knows there is no valid justification for doing it – yet he does so anyway.

This is not the result of blame. This is the result of someone prioritizing their own comfort over an increased likelihood of harm. It is not justified, as a drunk driver knows perfectly well that they are increasing the risk of accidents.

Not only is increased awareness of consequences not necessary as a result of Lessans ideas, there is also a limit to what we can predict. Our actions may have unforeseen consequences, and what we can predict is limited by what we know – and while we may or may not live in a deterministic universe, we certainly do not live in a determined universe. Lessans does not account for this, and implicitly treats all consequences as predictable. They are not – there are simply too many factors for us to envision all of them when we make decisions.

All of chapter 3 is restating the claim that the removal of blame would also mean the removal of all carelessness - no new evidence for this is presented, however.

Lessans fancies himself an old-school philosopher. He loves Spinoza for a reason – Spinoza was a system-builder. He, like Lessans, started with a single principle, and then attempted to expand that principle to cover all possible knowledge. There were merits to Spinoza’s thinking but his system was not the answer he thought it was.

The same is true of Lessans – although he is no Spinoza. Parts of his thinking have something to it, but he tries to extend his ideas to some sort of all-encompassing truth that simply is not there. There is no reason to assume that all harmful intent is caused by the ability to justify your actions. While we could say that all life moves from A to B because they always follow the path of maximum satisfaction, we cannot say that we have analysed and identified all sources of satisfaction and can now predict how they will move.

If you need an example of how the point is stretched, look at chapter 5. Love and sex are practically made synonymous, and there is a further assertion that one cannot fall in love with someone that would never allow you to kiss or touch her or him, or with someone who cannot give or receive sexual gratification. This is stated simply as a fact with nothing to back it up.

Also, it is assumed that you can make a decision to marry someone very early on, and then predict with absolute certainty how they are going to develop. Lessans world seems to be filling up with easily predictable drones at this stage. There is no possibility for people to meet young, fall madly in love, marry, develop along different paths (grow apart) and ending up leaving one another. Once again, Lessans assumes not only that we live in a determined universe, but that he has analysed all possible factors and can now predict exactly how things will go.

This seems to be because in Lessans world, love is but a sexual habit. The rather annoying habit of applying the word "Mathematical" to everything persists.

Lessans once again has a point but makes the mistake of creating a world-encompassing system out of simple observations. You can indeed grow used to someone and develop a perfectly satisfying relationship, even with a more or less random person. I personally know people who live in arranged marriages that are happy - they say it places more emphasis on making a relationship work, and reduces the expectation for everything about your partner to be perfect.

But again a leap is made that is not warranted by the observation. Lessans approach to love and sex is just that - his personal approach. There is nothing to back up the idea that love is a habit of sexuality for everyone. He once again takes a simple observation and proceeds to elevate it to the level of gospel, without anything to back up his assertions. A quick referral back to the assumed increased carefulness that is to come out of the removal of justification is all he feels it requires to make his predictions absolute fact. As we have already seen, they are not, and they cannot be.

I cannot help but feel that what Lessans is trying to do is build the Deterministic Time Machine. The idea is this: if our universe is deterministic, then it should theoretically be possible to build a model that depicts all particles in the universe with the proper direction, speed and position.

This model would then be able to accurately predict all of the future, as it would work exactly like ours. However, since you would need something that consists of at least 1 particle to represent each particle, this would mean that the smallest version of that machine is an exact replica of our universe. In other words, this is forever impractical.

However, one could simplify - represent groups of particles as units. This means you can make your future-predicting device smaller, at the cost of accuracy.

This is what Lessans is attempting to do. He simplifies the whole gamut of human experience into units, and then tries to predict the future with it. it doesn't work, because it is an oversimplification.

I am not even going to go into the rather murky theory of sight, which I have already dealt with in other posts.

I will have a look at the rest of the book if I have more time later today. "


To his last line peacegirl pleaded that he not go on because he did not understand (agree with) the first part.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:45 pm

One of the things that makes 'Peacegirl's' presentation so difficult is her insistence that everyone understand each chapter before going on. The problem is that understanding is indicated by complete agreement with what is written, and if someone disagrees with anything she will continue to argue, and try to convince everyone that the book is absolutely correct. They are now on page 53 and she still wants everyone to "understand" Chapter 1 though there has been some discussion of later chapters, against her will.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Username on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:46 pm

Validity = Cooperation? No.

By the way, Democracy = Tyranny of the Majority against the Minority.

Accept you're wrong, Kristy.


Here's how "voting" works on some dipshit website like ILO: "Let's ban _____!!!", "Okay, vote for it!", "Me, me too!!", "Fuck you idiots", "HA! That's 2 versus 1, you lose!", "Voting is Unanimous, you're banned, bye!".

Tyranny is believing you are somehow divorced from taking actions as a Dictator.

Administrator = Absolute Tyrant, Dictator = Kriswest on this website. Don't fucking deny it. I hate liars.


Your lie that "people rule" is bullshit. If this is true then give me, thedoc, and Mayflow your administrative password.

Now.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:51 pm

No thanks, I don't want it.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Username on Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:48 pm

Nobody was responding to you doc because you're insignificant.

And you'll continue to stay that way.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:00 am

Thankyou, I must be getting better. Tho' try as I might I don't think I'll ever match you.

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