Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:37 pm

So you think nature is blunt,direct and straightforward? Do you not see that morals ethics and philosophy are natural to the world? All critturs have them , they are not manmade.

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"...morals ethics and philosophy are natural to the world? All critturs have them , they are not manmade."

Post  Henry Quirk on Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:21 pm

Then you and me have different definitions for "morals, ethics, and philosophy".

As I see those (sometimes useful) fictions, only a human individual can craft and hold them in his or her head.
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:13 pm

What prevents a carnivore from eating an herbivore that it has lived with and was raised by that herbivore? A Pitcher plant camoflages its intent to eat a bug by using a sweet smell, other plants do the same but, they do not eat the bugs. Camoflaged changing colors becoming a shape are all about what? And what are ethics morals and philosophy about at their core? Survival. Why do animals not attack and kill each other in their herd or pack? Survival . But how can they actually know this?

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Henry Quirk on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:47 pm

"What prevents a carnivore from eating an herbivore that it has lived with and was raised by that herbivore?"

Training, for one. The owner of both animals discourages the eating of one by the other.

A satisfied appetite, for another. If the meat eater is 'not hungry' then it's not so likely to eat the plant eater.

Can't see how anything approaching a moral or ethic is involved (except as either pertains to the 'owner').

#

"A Pitcher plant camoflages its intent to eat a bug by using a sweet smell, other plants do the same but, they do not eat the bugs."

Natural selections of traits or qualities that enhance the survival of any particular animal or species seems, to me, quite distant from the esoterica of morality.

#

"Camoflaged changing colors becoming a shape are all about what?"

Continued living, or (as you say: survival).

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"And what are ethics morals and philosophy about at their core? Survival."

In part: yes. Ethics, morality, and philosophies are also (perhaps, mostly) about control, establishing and maintaining 'status quo', about domestication.

The differences between 'natural selection' and 'morality' far outweigh the similarities (of goal).

#

"Why do animals not attack and kill each other in their herd or pack? Survival . But how can they actually know this?."

Most animals 'know' nothing as they, the animals, are just bio-automata (clusters of instinct and impulse). The few non-human examples that may have 'self' and 'self'-consciousness are dim and tenuous when compared to any human being (sharp, clear, robust 'I'ness). So: IF pack members don't attack each other, it has far more to do with innate, instinctual, hierarchies (alpha, beta, delta, gamma, etc.) than conscious choice. Reality is, however, alphas are challenged all the time, litters are eaten by rival males and females and on and on.

Insofar as is observable: only human individuals possess the capacity for complex language (rather than simple communication), ascendant 'I'ness (rather than simple consciousness/awareness), personal autonomy/choice (rather than simple 'drives') all which conspire (along with other aspects unique to humans) to make man the pattern seeker and maker (which fundamentally is what a morality, an ethic, a philosophy, is: a pattern, a map, by which to navigate the World).

Another way to look at it: morality, ethics, philosophy are attempts at de-liberation (removing options from the table)...only humans do this.

As I say: morality, ethics, philosophy are (sometimes useful) fictions...none should or can be discounted, all have parts to play, but all are only fictions (existing and empowering only to the extent any one holds them in his or her head).
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:26 pm

I was not thinking domesticated animals only. There have been documentations of wild creatures adopting those infants not of their species and classification, male and female.
And as far as pertaining to the owner what keeps carnivores from killing the owner? I have a pack of 19 dogs most are large. Food is not the only control for animals. they eat only once a day, what about the rest of the time? What keeps them from attacking when they get excited or nervous or upset? Built in ethics and or morals about not eating pack members or killing pack members.
Survival carries ethics and morals to lie about one's own actual physicalness is an ethical thing. Be it plant or animal. You/ it is hiding truth. So survival does use ethics/morals.
Sure humans take a base thing and make it complex but then , our societies are more complex and need complex rules and regulations.
what I am saying is all that you just posted are the basics of morals and ethics. all survival actions are those in simplistic base form. We kill or not kill based upon survival. We act and react based upon survival and is not self survival the base of being ethically and morally responsible to yourself? If an animal has no survival instincts then it would have no self control. It would kill , be killed or expire. Survival is at the very core of ethics and morals. It is our behavior towards ourself. Wether you think animals have no sense of self at all or not they still have to have a sense of self preservation, they still must decide what is in their best interest.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Henry Quirk on Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:41 pm

"There have been documentations of wild creatures adopting those infants not of their species and classification, male and female."

Can you direct me to some of this documentation?

I hope you're not referring to so-called 'feral children' (wolf boys and girls) 'cause that's all hooey and fairytales.

#

"And as far as pertaining to the owner what keeps carnivores from killing the owner?"

Domestication, of course. Domestication being the breaking of the animal, forcing its submission, forcing the animal to recognize the owner as alpha. This is not a sure thing, however: how many news stories have we both read of chimps and tigers and whatnot (seemingly placid and happy in captivity) suddenly going bonkers and (in the case of the chimps) mauling the owner horribly, eating the flesh of the owner, etc.

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"I have a pack of 19 dogs most are large. Food is not the only control for animals. they eat only once a day, what about the rest of the time? What keeps them from attacking when they get excited or nervous or upset?"

The modern dog is deeply domesticated (right on down to its genes), so, right there, the dogs are not inclined to eat you...also: you're the alpha, the boss, the head honcho.

Your dominance is about power, not morality.

#

"Built in ethics and or morals about not eating pack members or killing pack members."

Again: instinct and morals are not synonymous.
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:41 pm

I would direct you if i could recall titles. you must forgive my midlife brain slump on details. Very Happy
And no its not about feral kids,, although that does make one think of some interesting possiblities on children under certain circumstance,, but, that might be another topic

Instincts are habits based upon generational experiences. Good and bad. Is it good to eat your family? No, why? you are alone in a harsh world.. Blah Balh , your mind or an animal mind discovers these simple truths. So then what happens? The next generation comes along..... Well you have a bright mind you can run the whole possibles out in your head without me typing a whole long windy thing. at any rate eventually not eating your pack becomes instinct because somewhere in that line it has been repeated and repeated that eating family is bad. Noone for generations has tried to eat their family. the lesson of not eating family is merely a story not an experienced experience. We are talking the basic moral and ethical situation. At its roots.

OBTW, Modern dogs not inclined to eat you???? You have not had much experience with animals have you?

At any rate Power is ethics and morals At its root of course, If I were to abuse these dogs they would turn on me no matter how afraid they are of me singlularly, the pack would become violent. The pack would become one. In a pack such as this if there is a fight, there is an attack on the one that started the fight or the weakest fighter by the whole or majority of the pack. Why? Because it is best for the pack to remove the offending one... How can that not be ethics or morals built into survival?
I am obviously not choosing the right words, I will think more on how to explain myself. Just think about how a leader leads and why.

I do not believe in intelligent design. i do think that it is only logical that we and all other life forms evolved. To evolve a species must follow protocols of basic ethics and morals
Ok so do believe in intelligent design/gods/ superior beings creating us?

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Henry Quirk on Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:51 pm

"I am obviously not choosing the right words..."

Your words are fine...that's not the problem.

The 'problem': while 'instinct' and 'morals' both promote 'survival', I see them as distinct from one another (though, perhaps, overlapping in certain aspects), and you see them -- 'instinct' and 'morals' -- as synonymous.

As I say above: 'The differences between 'natural selection' and 'morality' far outweigh the similarities (of goal)'.

#

"Modern dogs not inclined to eat you?"

The modern, domesticated, dog is not inclined to eat its owner under normal, day-to-day, circumstances where its needs are met and where the owner's position as alpha remains strong.

This is obvious.
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:36 pm

No i think I am choosing wrong because you think i see them as synonymous. I see them more like parts of a whole. A seed is not a tree but, a seed becomes a tree. if it were as you see it I would be calling the seed a tree.I don't see morals \ethics as you do. I don't see them as most people do. Evolution has caused species to follow protocols in order to survive and thrive. correct? Well what we have are protocols to survive and thrive, we have as a group declared this particular set of protocols morals and ethics. this set allows us to live together without killing the species off as we would most likely do , due to our very nature. All sociatal creatures have a similar set of protocols. yes less complex but still at its core identical to similiar. Instincts were not part of life in the beginning of life. Unless you believe in intelligent design. ethic/morals are experience without experiencing. It protects us as a species. We instinctively mistrust strange humans Correct? Yet we do not automatically molest them in anyway. there was a time that we would.

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"I don't see moralsethics as you do."

Post  Henry Quirk on Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:50 pm

And that's the root of it.

I see morality as construct (sometimes pragmatic, often unreasonable); you see morality as organic.

We're on two sides of a canyon and each believes his side is better than the other.

*shrug*

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:23 pm

How about it being both?

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"How about it being both?"

Post  Henry Quirk on Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:30 pm

Oh, sure...can't see how it costs me anything to acknowledge that...in fact: I'll do you one better...the instinct (for self preservation/survival) precedes the construct (morality), is the foundation for the construct...that is: without the foundation of instinct there can be no construct.

However...

It's a mistake to assume that because the instinct precedes the construct (and is necessary for the construct) that the two -- instinct and construct -- are synonymous.

That's the philosophical equivalent of saying 'water' is synonymous with 'hydrogen' and 'oxygen'. Demonstrably, water, while comprised of hydrogen and oxygen, is distinct and singular (in quality) from the constituents.

Another example: no one confuses the foundation of a house for the house itself. Certainly: the house cannot stand without its foundation, but the house is not the foundation.
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:02 pm

Ahh but there cannot be instinct without experience. Experience creates instinct. it is the emotiion of that experience that decides the instinct, good or bad and what to do. logic/reasoning also is thrown in equal amounts as the emotion. Deciding what to do is the right or wrong , it is the moral /ethic. Is it good or bad to eat your progeny? What occurs if you do? It is hard to believe that in the beginning of life that progeny were not often eaten by their mothers. Food is food, meat is meat. what occured to stop the process. it would be illogical to presume that we females were created with an instinct to not eat our young at the beginning of life. While we were still fishy little critturs. lay them eggs go off tool around wander back and see little ones ,, yum,,, You get the idea. somewhere some how it became a bad thing to eat those babies..Emotionwould be the first stimulant on the earliest critturs. and what is the core of ethics and morals? emotion, how does it affect our life? Experience.

I do agree with what you say I am just saying that the foundation is made of stone and you say it is made of cement. At least that is what I am reading.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Henry Quirk on Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:19 pm

"there cannot be instinct without experience"

No doubt. But because Fido 'learns' doesn't make Fido capable of self-reflection (recursiveness).

Fido is not 'I', cannot craft a morality or ethic...Fido is 'conscious' but not 'self' conscious.

Fido feels fear but never reflects on that fear.

Fido is bio-automata.

#

"Is it good or bad to eat your progeny?"

Cannibalism is standard for any number of species and has figured prominently throughout human history.
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:57 pm

I have to disagree about reflecting on that fear or any emotion, I work with animals every day, 8 different species. The smallest being a collection of Lovebirds, the largest a small herd of Buffalo. I enjoy learning and I enjoy my job as it affords me a chance to learn. I am with these creatures 7 days a week. Its a cool job except that little part. Laughing
I do know that each of these creatures within their group of species that I care for, has their own unique personalities. Each Lovebird has its own ways , likes and dislikes, behaviorisms. Blew me a way when i noticed that. I always thought a bird was a bird was a bird. for example, Little harry houdini can figure out how to escape his cage, I have to distract harry while I undo the securings on the doors. I have not resorted to padlocks yet. My curiosity prevents it. This is just one little bird in the flock of 20. They all have remarkable things. and that is just the birds. the dumbest species I care for.

In no way am I saying they are like us. We eat them. We use them , we love them, but they are not us. i do think that crafting a morality is the wrong way to put it. i think learning the experience is what causes morals not crafting.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Henry Quirk on Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:11 pm

The idiosyncratic capability of any particular member of any (non-human) species is indication of nothing more or less than that particular animal's capacity to learn...not seeing how this translates to 'moral' or 'morality-making'.

Life, as a whole, is extraordinary...clumps of dirty water that move and replicate and whatnot: absolutely marvelous...but, for all the wonders found in life as a whole, only in one specific example of life can I find 'I-ness' and everything extending from 'I-ness' (which, of course, includes 'morality').


Last edited by Henry Quirk on Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : took out a 'c' (the letter, the character, the symbol))
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