Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Fri May 06, 2011 2:02 pm

doc education is not achieved with one lesson it all must be repeated and repeated and for many repeated and repeated and repeated on and on. Eventually something anything will get through even in the most reluctant mind. Part can be better than none.

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"education...must be repeated and repeated"

Post  Henry Quirk on Fri May 06, 2011 3:58 pm

Indoctrination.
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Fri May 06, 2011 4:17 pm

kriswest wrote:doc education is not achieved with one lesson it all must be repeated and repeated and for many repeated and repeated and repeated on and on. Eventually something anything will get through even in the most reluctant mind. Part can be better than none.

With some lessons it is not enough to just repeat it to a student it takes generations for the message to take effect. One example that needs to be overcome is the generations of conflict and hate over something that happened so far in the past that no one living has any direct knowledge or experience of the events. The lessons of hate need to be interupted.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Sun May 08, 2011 4:43 pm

What did you think of that other poston MI, Education can and or does create insanity?

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insanity

Post  thedoc on Sun May 08, 2011 8:03 pm

Hi Kris, I saw the post, and read it but now I don't remember enough of it and I don't remember which thread it was in. A link or the name of the thread and forum? I want to read it over again before I comment, the surest way to really screw things up is to do it from memory, especially mine.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Tue May 10, 2011 2:38 pm

Doc I will Pm it to you I would prefer that site to remain as is.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Tue May 10, 2011 6:34 pm

Kris, it depends on exactly how you define insanity, but yes education can cause some to loose their grip on reality. One of my disagreements with current education is the practice of introducing material at earlier and earlier ages, it gets to a point that the student can learn the material but lacks the maturity to fully understand it. There is also danger for the teachers and adminstrators dealing with students. Sometimes it is just the data that causes some to loose it. In another thread I was explaining a current theory of Cosmology that the Universe is finite but unbounded. That is to say the Universe is of limited size but has no edge no boundry, also beyond the limits of the size of the universe there is nothing, and this doen not mean 'nothing' as in 'empty space' There is nothing, no empty space, no place for light to go, outside the universe does not exist in any sense. Some people who try to conceptualize this will not be able to because it is outside the range of the Human mind to grasp. Its just like Infinity, it is a mathematical concept, that is impossable for the mind to comprenend, Infinity does not exist in reality, there is no such thing, just in math. The person who insists on trying to grasp these concepts will fail and if they do not stop trying they could loose their sanity.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Wed May 18, 2011 6:01 pm

So in keeping with that not all humans should be allowed to vote or have certain responsibilities. Correct? Would you allow a person from one of those undeveloped Amazon tribes to make rules for the rest of humanity?

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Wed May 18, 2011 8:52 pm

Yes, but neither would I want residents of manhattan to make rules for the Amazon Tribsman.

Who decides who should vote and who should not? Who picks the deciders? Who picks those who pick? Who sets the standards and conditions? Do you see that this could be an unworkable situation?

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Wed May 18, 2011 9:20 pm

Sure but it is something that cannot be avoided either. You are a parent you know darn well that sometimes you have to make the hard undesirable decisions and you can only hope its the right one in the end. If you avoid the decision what happens? It gets worse and worse. The only thing you can do is try to be fair honest and just, all the while you know someone is going to get screwed or think they got screwed. You become the bad guy. Someone must make the decisions, someone must lead and be the bad guy. You know it I know it and any reasonable adult knows this. I am here to hear voices of many and try to be fair to as many as possible even though I know someone will think otherwise. You can't treat your teen as a toddler and you can't treat a toddler as a teen. But they still are your children. You still are responsible. All governing is is being a parent.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Henry Quirk on Fri May 20, 2011 3:37 pm

This pisses me off...

"Who decides who should vote and who should not? Who picks the deciders? Who picks those who pick? Who sets the standards and conditions?"

...when I ask these questions I'm (according to you) 'not contributing', but when you ask them I'm certain you feel 'productive'.

A friggin' double standard.

#

"You are a parent you know darn well that sometimes you have to make the hard undesirable decisions and you can only hope its the right..."

Sure, but it's a bad analogy 'cause (for example) I'm not a child and I don't need a parent-proxy to 'decide' for me.

#

"Someone must make the decisions"

Sure: I do that -- for myself -- all the goddamned time...again: I don't need YOU (or any one else) to decide for me.

#

"All governing is is being a parent."

How arrogant.

Arrogant to assume, for example, I need you to decide for me (or any one)...you sound like a politician (not a statesman)...and (like a politician) you offer jack in support of your superior 'intellect' or 'insight'.

Consider yourself rejected in full as leader, parent-proxy, dictator, monarch, or member of the politburo.

And -- again -- I ask: in the face of my rejection of you and yours, what will (and those like you) do about 'me' (and those like me)?

You ignore the question hoping (I guess) malcontents, squeaky wheels, and square pegs will just 'settle down'...sorry...not happening.

Folks like me will eat away at your 'new world order', your 'brave new world', from the foundation up.

Folks like me will steal your resources, poison your water supplies, spike your trees, sugar your gas tanks and on and on.

What will you do?
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Fri May 20, 2011 4:12 pm

Henry Quirk wrote:This pisses me off...

"Who decides who should vote and who should not? Who picks the deciders? Who picks those who pick? Who sets the standards and conditions?"

...when I ask these questions I'm (according to you) 'not contributing', but when you ask them I'm certain you feel 'productive'.

A friggin' double standard.

#

"You are a parent you know darn well that sometimes you have to make the hard undesirable decisions and you can only hope its the right..."

Sure, but it's a bad analogy 'cause (for example) I'm not a child and I don't need a parent-proxy to 'decide' for me.

#

"Someone must make the decisions"

Sure: I do that -- for myself -- all the goddamned time...again: I don't need YOU (or any one else) to decide for me.

#

"All governing is is being a parent."

How arrogant.

Arrogant to assume, for example, I need you to decide for me (or any one)...you sound like a politician (not a statesman)...and (like a politician) you offer jack in support of your superior 'intellect' or 'insight'.

Consider yourself rejected in full as leader, parent-proxy, dictator, monarch, or member of the politburo.

And -- again -- I ask: in the face of my rejection of you and yours, what will (and those like you) do about 'me' (and those like me)?

You ignore the question hoping (I guess) malcontents, squeaky wheels, and square pegs will just 'settle down'...sorry...not happening.

Folks like me will eat away at your 'new world order', your 'brave new world', from the foundation up.

Folks like me will steal your resources, poison your water supplies, spike your trees, sugar your gas tanks and on and on.

What will you do?


Sorry I believe I asked those questions with the same intent as you did, but being facetious doesn't come off very well. Kriswest seems to be trying to form a government by the majority and for the majority and those malcontents, squeaky wheels and square pegs, will either fit in or be left out. You seem to have found a way to fly under the radar, but not everyone has that ability or option. I fought with a school district for 3 years over a student who would not fit in to their 'goodie-two-shoe' mold, she was finally homeschooled for her last year and we thumbed our nose at the school, figuratively, on our own. I am not in favor of any government or society that leaves anyone out or is too controling, but I also do not favor lawless anarchy. My desire is freedom with safety, just how do you ballance that?

Also with the question that 'pissed you off' I was trying to get Kriswest to realistically face these issues, and give some kind of workable answer.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Henry Quirk on Fri May 20, 2011 4:55 pm

"I was trying to get Kriswest to realistically face these issues, and give some kind of workable answer."

As the opposition: that's my intent as well...all well and fine for Kris (and those like her? him?) to preach to the choir and be all peaceable-like...the world, however, has folks like 'me' in it...folks who are fond of, as you say, "lawless anarchy" (or 'self-rule')*.

He/she will have to address folks like me (just like the current powers that be must, and fail, to address folks like me).

To date: Kris has made no real effort to answer my questions or offer up a stitch of evidence that he/she can and should play 'parent'.

This 'parenting' analogy he/she uses, I think, is damning. It's one thing to crow incessantly about how each and every one should have a voice or a vote, but it's quite another assume (without justification) he/she and his/hers are somehow equipped to 'parent' every one else.

As I say: arrogant.

#

"being facetious"

Have I been facetious?

*shrug*




*And: let's not forget about all the fanatics out there...religionists, the mercenary, the opportunistic, idealists, etc. who believe 'their' agenda(s) and purpose(s) are just as 'right' as Kris believes his/hers to be.

Me? I just wanna be left alone...but: there are millions of folks who (like Kris and every other 'politician') don't wanna leave me be, and who won't take kindly to Kris's 'world governing body' (mainly because Kris's 'world governing body' is not THEIR 'world governing body').

Really: folks like me are Kris's smallest concern...folks like me are relatively quiet and slip into the cracks and live lives largely unnoticed...folks like me don't push (back) till decisively cornered. I have no reason to do otherwise.

The fanatics, however, won't wait for the excuse of self-defense to push...the second Kris (or those like her/him) move to establish power, the fanatics will hit hard (by way of politics, marketing, and -- if need be -- violence).
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Fri May 20, 2011 7:16 pm

Henry Quirk wrote:
"I was trying to get Kriswest to realistically face these issues, and give some kind of workable answer."

As the opposition: that's my intent as well...all well and fine for Kris (and those like her? him?) to preach to the choir and be all peaceable-like...the world, however, has folks like 'me' in it...folks who are fond of, as you say, "lawless anarchy" (or 'self-rule')*.

"being facetious"
Have I been facetious?*shrug*


I was refering to myself, but it didn't work very well.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Fri May 20, 2011 9:29 pm

Henry Quirk wrote:
"Me? I just wanna be left alone...Really: folks like me are Kris's smallest concern...folks like me are relatively quiet and slip into the cracks and live lives largely unnoticed...
.

Hi Henry, I'm starting to like your idea of 'flying under the radar', someday I might ask for particulars but not in the open. I was just on a another forum thread about a student that objected, 'via private e-mail', to the planned prayer at a school graduation and the shit hit the fan when everyone on the forum started picking on the school for violating the constitution. I just pointed out that the student was probably just doing it for attention and got a lot of heat. I just couldn't see where the school was any more at fault than everyone who just sat back and didn't object for 20 or 30 years. Sorry I'm just a bit pissed at these 'holier-than-thou' types who always pick the easy target without considering both sides.

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  kriswest on Sun May 22, 2011 5:13 pm

Good Lord,, Who makes decisions? We make decisions... We are the ones here in this world right now... I kind of was hoping it would be obvious because this is a forum world.... AND WE ARE IT. I have asked everyone to bring in others of differing opinions etc. So that we can get a broader scope of humanity,,, but have you all??? Oh hell no. You all are bickering all about the beginning... You all do realize you are following the norm set down by our ancestors. Gather people together to discuss how to live together and then spend the first part of the time bickering about things that are not even on the topic. So here we go; take a look at the thread title will you??? what the hell does all of this have to do with the thread? I am not the leader,, I am not the soul decision maker. but I would like to follow some protocol and make some protocol to actually get ideas and thoughts flowing. Henry if you don't have any feasable ideas or thoughts, rather than just poking a stick in the cage try coming up with things you can abide with and live with. I do know that to work together there has to be guidlines and outlines. So can we get back to the topic????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Pretty please. I have already given my voice on parts of it and hey guess what its still there in the beginning of this thread. If you are adults, quit bickering like little ones and act like adults please. Try ,,, actually try working together. OK??? this world and the real world needs maturity and thought.

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First step.

Post  thedoc on Sun May 22, 2011 7:55 pm

OK, first step, who wants to be part of it and who does not? Just like a forum the first step is to deside if you want to be a part of it or not. If you don't want to you need go no farther and you are left out of the final result. If you want to be part of the process you're in, but you can still back out before signing up. If someone doesn't want to be under the protection and control of the new gov. why should they need to say anything about it? So this is the first step, who's in who's out?

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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  Henry Quirk on Mon May 23, 2011 3:17 pm

"We make decisions'

I've made mine: I oppose you.

#

"if you don't have any feasable ideas or thoughts, rather than just poking a stick in the cage try coming up with things you can abide with and live with"

As the opposition: that's not my job.

My job is to say 'hell no!’

Your job is to convince me, or, silence me (jail or the 'chair').

Now: if you prefer I not participate: fine, but from the start I've stood 'opposed', so you can’t claim I'm changing the rules of the game or my role 'in' the game.

#

"who's in who's out?"

Me: out.

If the 'world governing body' leaves me be: then, all is hunky-dory.

If the 'world governing body' won't leave me be (and it won't): WAR!

Really: I'm not leaving the 'world governing body' any choice: I will not cooperate or accommodate or participate...I will do as 'I' choose, not as others would choose for me.

Now: do sumthin' about it.

Kris says we're dicking around: I disagree...this exercise should be reflective of what will (does!) happen in the 'real word' (otherwise it's all bullshit)...in the 'real world', governments (current and proposed) are opposed...again (as I've asked over and over): what will the 'world governing body' do about someone like 'me'?
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Mon May 23, 2011 4:01 pm

Henry Quirk wrote:
"We make decisions'

I've made mine: I oppose you.

Really: I'm not leaving the 'world governing body' any choice: I will not cooperate or accommodate or participate...I will do as 'I' choose, not as others would choose for me.

Now: do sumthin' about it.

Kris says we're dicking around: I disagree...this exercise should be reflective of what will (does!) happen in the 'real word' (otherwise it's all bullshit)...in the 'real world', governments (current and proposed) are opposed...again (as I've asked over and over): what will the 'world governing body' do about someone like 'me'?

That would depend on how harmless you are. If you can do your thing and no-one knows you are there, and you're not a leach on society, why would anything be done? If you are causing trouble and will not live by the rules, then I suppose you would need to be removed from society. That would be your choice to live in a cave in the wilderness, just don't eat any protected species, of course if you start eating toads, any problem would soon go away.

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"That would depend on how harmless you are"

Post  Henry Quirk on Mon May 23, 2011 4:26 pm

Irrelevant.

'Governance' is not about 'live and let live': it's about domestication.

'Governors' rarely allow any one to peaceably 'do his or her own thing'.

Why?

Because successful 'self-reliance' casts the 'governor's' value (to any one, for anything) into doubt ("Why do I need that schmuck when I can do it myself"?)
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Mon May 23, 2011 4:36 pm

Then by that definition you would be causing trouble.

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Then by that definition you would be causing trouble.

Post  Henry Quirk on Mon May 23, 2011 5:49 pm

Yep.

Raising the question (again): what will Kris's 'world governing body' do about 'me'?

I KNOW what it HAS to do...I just wanna hear it from Kris.
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"try coming up with things you can abide with and live with"

Post  Henry Quirk on Mon May 23, 2011 8:18 pm

It occurs to me: I've done this, at least twice, in-forum.

I can't live with 'world governing bodies' or 'society' or 'community' (though I can navigate those)...I can live with and 'in' 'civilization'.

Again: civilization is the on-going, ill-defined, result of at least two *individuals agreeing to NOT steal from one another, NOT injure one another, NOT kill one another, so that each can go off and do something (anything!) other than live in a constant state of self-defense.



*Individuals (you, me, him, her, etc.) is all there is...'governance/government', 'society', 'community', 'we', etc., these are all convenient, sometimes useful, fictions.
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

Post  thedoc on Mon May 23, 2011 9:56 pm

It appears there isn't much to do right now, . . . . . Well we could write a play - 'Waiting for Kridot' I will assume that you will not play the one on the leash?

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'Waiting for Kridot'

Post  Henry Quirk on Tue May 24, 2011 12:25 am

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Re: Outline of steps to take in forming the Governing Body

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