" a sustaining governing body?"

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"harm (in any form)"

Post  Henry Quirk on Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:58 pm

And: what exactly is 'harm'?

The answer -- insofar as I can tell -- is not so obvious.
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  thedoc on Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:00 pm

'Self-defence'? if you and the others want to 'what-if' this to death, go ahead, I'm not interested.

If you are going to live around other people there is going to be some kind of code of conduct, the other choice is to play 'Davey Crocket' and live alone in the wildernes. But even there you will find there are rules to follow or you woun't last very long.

If you want to play your little game of 'I don't like rules' go for it, but not with me. Otherwise lets get serious and say something constructive.

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  Mayflow on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:15 am

Henry Quirk wrote:And: what exactly is 'harm'?

The answer -- insofar as I can tell -- is not so obvious.

In the big picture, I just don't think "harm" even means anything. It's made up by mind to like what?
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  Henry Quirk on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:21 am

"'Self-defence'? if you and the others want to 'what-if' this to death, go ahead, I'm not interested."

Then you best opt out now.

You throw up generalities ("allow for village idiots but not anarchists", "The most basic criteria whold be harm (in any form) to another person or their property") and, then, when questioned on these generalities (and these ARE generalities...so much so as to be almost meaningless), you pout.

*shrug*

Yep...walk away...it ain't gonna get any better.

#

"If you are going to live around other people there is going to be some kind of code of conduct"

And -- again -- who decides what 'is' proper conduct and what isn't?

You -- again -- would probably throw up "consensus or 'Big Brother'"

Neither appeal to me. After all: what makes 'group' assignment of value (as in ethical/moral choice) superior to mine?

The only thing that 'justifies' 'mob rule' is the collected 'might' (the big(ger) stick) that the mob wields...there is noting intrinsic to the 'mob' that makes the choices of those comprising the 'mob' superior...and, if this is the case, why am I obligated to abide if I can navigate the mob quietly or challenge the mob with my own stick?

#

"live alone in the wildernes"

Been there, done that...I imagine someday I will again...your comment (and my comment) is irrelevant in the context of 'this' discussion since we're talking about 'human law' and 'world governing bodies' and not outdoor survival.

But: since you brought it up: "even there you will find there are rules to follow or you woun't last very long"

Nope. there are no 'rules'...loose strategies is what a body needs to live alone in the woods...a clear head is what a body needs to live alone in the woods...capability and capacity is what one needs to live alone in the woods...not 'rules' or 'law'.

But, this is all as irrelevant to the dissuasion about 'human law' and 'world governing bodies' as Kris's comment about how I obey the law the because I'm bound up by the laws of nature.

Again: we aren't talking about outdoor survival or scientific law...we ARE talking about 'human law' and 'world governing bodies'.

#

"...get serious and say something constructive."

First: you apparently missed the part wherein I said I would play the opposition in these proceedings (I have no other option as I disagree fundamentally with the premise of 'world governing bodies').

Second: while you see my contribution as "game playing' and un-constructive it seems to me my very serious opposition (and your inability to get around it) illustrates perfectly why all this hooey about 'world governing bodies' will not work.

Here we are: less than a handful playing with hypotheticals (universal peace and love and all that rot) that have absolutely no chance of ever translating into the real world and you're ready to throw in the towel 'cause I'm not playing nice enough, or right enough, for you.

So much for that utopia all the cogs pine for... Neutral
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  kriswest on Wed May 04, 2011 2:35 pm

Mob rule or Democratic? One vote one person. Using the internet this is quite possible.

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Internet?

Post  thedoc on Wed May 04, 2011 4:15 pm

One person -One vote via the internet leaves out a lot of people. Just going back to the original American form where the 'landed aristocracy' had the say, internet access is the new upper class rule.


Last edited by thedoc on Wed May 04, 2011 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  Henry Quirk on Wed May 04, 2011 4:18 pm

"Mob rule or Democratic?"

What's the practical difference between the two?

In either case: some one(s) expect me to toe a line I didn't draw myself.

#

"One vote one person. Using the internet this is quite possible."

How I'm restrained is less important than that I'm restrained at all.

Whether by paper ballot or amassed electrons: the results are the same.
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  kriswest on Wed May 04, 2011 9:07 pm

Doc just public access to computers or phones gives people the internet.
Henry, You know I know everyone knows that no matter how you shake that tree. there will be leaders , laws and followers. A social species must have a form of governing. Now we could just let the biggest baddest toughest rule or we could try something out of the norm. And that is what i hope we can achieve here.

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  thedoc on Thu May 05, 2011 12:45 am

kriswest wrote:Doc just public access to computers or phones gives people the internet.
.

Do you seriously believe that every person in the world can just walk to the corner store and get on a public access computer. Don't you comprehend that there are some places in the world that do not have modern communications at all. That is a very large persentage of the world population out of touch.

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  Henry Quirk on Thu May 05, 2011 3:54 pm

"...everyone knows that no matter how you shake that tree. there will be leaders , laws and followers..."

No shit. I never disputed that.

In the same way, however: there will always be folks who bridle at being told what to do and who refuse to direct (and therefore, assume responsibility for) others.

Any 'governance' is gonna have to deal with such folks eventually (usually by way of prisons and executions).

Leaders and followers both (and the 'law' one imposes on the other) have to take into account 'me'.

I'm curious what you propose as a solution or remedy for 'me'.

#

"...social species..."

Sure humans are 'social': thing is, there's no universal standard of sociability...some folks can't bear to be alone (perhaps the majority at any given time), some folks can take or leave the company of others, some folks can't bear to be around others...as in all things: you must begin and end with 'individual', not 'species'.

If all (nearly) 7 billion of 'you' do 'this' (whatever 'this' is) how am I obligated to follow suit?

Because I'm human I must be a lemming?

I don't friggin' think so... Mad

#

"...we could just let the biggest baddest toughest rule..."

You don't 'let' the "biggest baddest" 'do' anything: you get the hell out of the way or you kill them.

Those are your only choices.
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Again (as I posted elsewhere in-forum):

Post  Henry Quirk on Thu May 05, 2011 5:34 pm

You're putting the horse before the cart: before talking about 'governance' (or proxy-hood) the conversation should begin with (and, perhaps, end with) 'civilization'.

Civilization is the on-going, dynamic, ill-defined, result of at least two individuals agreeing to NOT steal from, rape, or kill/injure one another so that each can go and do something (anything!) else.

If both parties abide then whatever results is 'civilization'.

If one or the other doesn't abide: all bets are off...WAR!

I find honest, open, war preferable to the blunt(ing) restraint of 'governance' or 'government'.


Last edited by Henry Quirk on Thu May 05, 2011 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spit and polish)
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  thedoc on Thu May 05, 2011 7:36 pm

[quote="Henry Quirk]
You don't 'let' the "biggest baddest" 'do' anything: you get the hell out of the way or you kill them.
Those are your only choices.[/quote]

I've been thinking about replacing some of my guns, and my son started reloading ammo. We're good to go.

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"We're good to go"

Post  Henry Quirk on Thu May 05, 2011 7:39 pm

NOW, we're on the same page, Doc... Wink
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  thedoc on Thu May 05, 2011 7:44 pm

Henry Quirk wrote:NOW, we're on the same page, Doc... Wink

I think we've been on the same page, just had different ways of saying it. And that's OK too, as long as we end up at the right place.

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  kriswest on Fri May 06, 2011 2:09 pm

Umm, doc really i am not that stupid to think that every human has access. Jeez. But enough do worldwide. And that is crucial.
Henry what if people had a real voice and were not lemmings? A Democratic republic. Representatives gather dicuss propose and the people vote via the net on what is the best for the world population . Rather than leaving it to those few as it is now.

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"Democratic republic"

Post  Henry Quirk on Fri May 06, 2011 3:52 pm

A mob dressed up in fine attire.

Still not seeing why I should hand over a say in my living to others.

You might say, "But, you already do!"

I would say, 'No: if you knew how I discharge and order my living you wouldn't say such an absurd thing."

You might say, "Well then, tell us how it is you get around what every one else seems bound by?"

I would say, 'Only an idiot admits to (the exact nature of his or her) 'crime' and 'sin' in the public square...I'm no idiot.'

'nuff said.
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  thedoc on Fri May 06, 2011 4:39 pm

Without knowing any specifics, if you are getting any benefit from the society in which you live but do not contribute for that benefit, that is wrong in my oppinion, that is ineffect stealing from society. Just living within the bourders of a country, and having the protection of the laws of that country, is a benefit, like it or not. When you live totally outside the bounds of any juristiction, then you are no longer a drain on any society. And that includes the access to the electricity, and the connection to the internet, throw in the use of technology that you did not invent and build totally on your own. I must assume, from what you say, that you are on a boat, that you built from the raw material, in international waters, useing a computer that you built yourself, from raw materials, of your own design?

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  Henry Quirk on Fri May 06, 2011 5:05 pm

"if you are getting any benefit from the society in which you live but do not contribute for that benefit, that is wrong in my oppinion"

Some 'benefits' I pay for: products and services from private vendors and providers including electricity and gas, certain internet services, machines and machinery, etc.

Some 'benefits' I don't pay for: products and services foisted up by 'governors' that I didn't ask for and no intention of paying for (but sure as shit I 'use' a small number of them, mostly for lack of another option).

That I was born into a certain place obligates me to nothing...that a culture I had no hand in crafting exists in this place I was born into obligates me to nothing.

Example: you might consider my use of public highways as 'theft', but as I had no hand in my conception AND no hand in crafting the culture that promotes public highways, I can't see how I'm obligated to pay for them (but I 'do' use them: the same culture that promotes public highways essentially deprives me of any other option to get from A to B).

But: all this is irrelevant...I do what I do and care little for assessments levied against me using as a standard a morality or ethic I don't subscribe to.

#

All this..."access to the electricity...connection to the internet...use of technology you did not invent and build totally on your own."...such crap.

I pay for (with money I earn for myself) access to electricity, connection to the internet, use of technology I didn't invent and build myself, etc.
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  thedoc on Fri May 06, 2011 5:15 pm

Smile Good, at least you are aware of the situation, I was afraid that you might be one who used society than denied its existanse or at least denied its benefit. Like or not I think we still agree with each other. I just like jerking peoples chains, sometimes. Smile

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"I just like jerking peoples chains, sometimes"

Post  Henry Quirk on Fri May 06, 2011 11:41 pm

Shameless! Inadequate!! Bastard!

Wink
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  Mayflow on Sat May 07, 2011 12:37 am

Henry Quirk wrote:Shameless! Inadequate!! Bastard!

Wink

You BOTH say these shameless inadequate things. I should know. I do the same. It isn't what we say, it is how we say it (which is maybe at least for the most part still inadequate) The good sides seems that inadequacy can inspire to rise to adequacy?

Hey, we could create a non governing group designed to take over the all of everything by encouraging all things to aspire to self understanding? That way we can get them all to do the work while we run around and play. cheers
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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  thedoc on Sat May 07, 2011 2:23 am

Henry Quirk wrote:Shameless! Inadequate!! Bastard!

Wink

Awww, that's so sweet, I didn't know you cared. Embarassed

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  thedoc on Sat May 07, 2011 2:25 am

Mayflow wrote:
Henry Quirk wrote:Shameless! Inadequate!! Bastard!
Wink

You BOTH say these shameless inadequate things. I should know. I do the same. cheers

So, great minds think alike ? ? Naw thats not it. A little help here !

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  kriswest on Sun May 08, 2011 4:40 pm

I love the no obligation part,,,, its a well used cop out. I didn't make it I had no voice in it I can do what i want... So why change things I found the loopholes tough shit on anyone that can't.

Yep its a tired old one the hippies/flowerchildren used it well back in the 60s. How many of those are left???? How many communes are left?? How many hippies are now Yuppies? Lets use that as a lesson in history. What did they discover about that "I am not obligated" theory?

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Re: " a sustaining governing body?"

Post  Mayflow on Sun May 08, 2011 5:58 pm

kriswest wrote:I love the no obligation part,,,, its a well used cop out. I didn't make it I had no voice in it I can do what i want... So why change things I found the loopholes tough shit on anyone that can't.

Yep its a tired old one the hippies/flowerchildren used it well back in the 60s. How many of those are left???? How many communes are left?? How many hippies are now Yuppies? Lets use that as a lesson in history. What did they discover about that "I am not obligated" theory?

Works for me. I choose what I choose, and I do what I do. Not because I feel 'obligated' to but simply because it suits me in the timeframe. So, sure I find the loopholes. One day, maybe I will find the wormholes in the time-space continuum as well.
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